Will the FA ever accept refereeing in this country has hit shocking levels?

On a day containing two of the biggest matches of the English calendar, both were hit by ridiculous decisions that completely ruined the game. In case you missed it -

- A thrilling Liverpool derby ended 2-2 after Luis Suarez's late goal was deemed offside, despite video replays later showing he was clearly yards on side.

- Chelsea pulled themselves back from 2-0 down to 2-2, only for the referee to then take it upon himself to destroy Chelsea's chances personally. A red card to Ivanovic seemed harsh, but that was nothing compared to the decision to show a red card to Torres for simulation. The tackle was rash and there was definite contact from the last man between Torres and the goal, yet somehow the referee deemed Torres the perpetrator. The to make things worse, United go on to score the winner, thanks to the officials missing the scorer being offside. Chelsea ate quite rightly furious, I've never seen a team be robbed so badly in my life.

When will these sorts of mistakes start finally becoming unacceptable? Will the ever act to make sure these things stop happening?

Red614 wrote:On a day containing two of the biggest matches of the English calendar, both were hit by ridiculous decisions that completely ruined the game. In case you missed it -

- A thrilling Liverpool derby ended 2-2 after Luis Suarez's late goal was deemed offside, despite video replays later showing he was clearly yards on side.

- Chelsea pulled themselves back from 2-0 down to 2-2, only for the referee to then take it upon himself to destroy Chelsea's chances personally. A red card to Ivanovic seemed harsh, but that was nothing compared to the decision to show a red card to Torres for simulation. The tackle was rash and there was definite contact from the last man between Torres and the goal, yet somehow the referee deemed Torres the perpetrator. The to make things worse, United go on to score the winner, thanks to the officials missing the scorer being offside. Chelsea ate quite rightly furious, I've never seen a team be robbed so badly in my life.

When will these sorts of mistakes start finally becoming unacceptable? Will the ever act to make sure these things stop happening?

It's actually wider than the incidents you have highlighted; it's not just about decision making, it's also about interpretation.
The Suarez goal, where he was clearly onside if not "yards" was scored by a player who should not have still been on the pitch after his two assaults on Everton players, one which caused Mirallas, Everton's best player to go off, and Disdan, which could have attracted a straight red. I've posted clips of the two incidents.
How did the officials miss the two fouls?
The Ivanovich sending off was inevitable if the referee deemed that he deliberately tripped the Man U player. According to Pat Nevin who was commentating on Five Live the decision to send off is no longer based on being the "Last Man" in defense, but on the "Denial of a goal scoring opportunity." I didn't know that.

This leads me on to my current favourite "Hobby Horse" - When did "Contact = Foul Play?"

Torres was clipped; there was contact. BUT not enough to, or in a manner to make him fall in the way that he did. Torres DIVED! And in my opinion Clattenburg actually got the second yellow card decision right.

I'm sick to death of players collapsing on contact to gain an advantage. Equally exasperating for me is that the football pundits seem to support "Collapsing on contact"

For once, I agree with Old Whiskey Nose (thankfully I didn't watch his interview in HD last night! LOL!)

It won't be changing shirt colours and badges that'll make me give up on football; becoming a non-contact sport will!!

Hernandez was so offside, I'm speechless that the officials missed it; it's still the case that there needs to be two defenders (usually one is the goal keeper) between the attacker and the goal line to be onside.

Trouble is; we have a problem but the solution is not clear.

I don't agree that refereeing has hit shocking levels. On the whole they are pretty good and probably better than they were 20 years ago. The trouble is they are human beings who are going to make mistakes. Unfortunately for them they now have cameras trained on the action from every conceivable angle allowing endless slow-mo replays of incidents they have to judge instantly on one viewing from one angle. The game is also incredibly fast now which doesn't help.

Refs aren't going to cease being human any time soon. So ways have to be found to make technology their friend rather than their enemy. Goal line technology is obviously a no brainer and I'm sure we will get it soon. I'd also like to see the introduction of a decision review system which allows them to call on a video ref for assistance if they are unsure about something. It works well in Rugby and other sports. Maybe, as in cricket and American football, teams should have the ability to call for a review of a decision. Say a maximum of two challenges per game. Some would say that might disrupt the flow of the game but better that than seething resentment over perceived injustices.

I watched both games yesterday and have come to this conclusion. Suarez really is an unpleasant little man. The dive following Baines own goal, shows a lack of respect for Moyes and the supporters of any team which are tired of all this falling about nonsense. I would have yellowed him for that. His final goal, was not offside, but frankly he should not have been on the pitch. The attempted
"tackles" on Mirallas and Distin were shocking and each deserved a minimum of a yellow card.

The Chelsea v Man Utd game may have huge implications. I thought that Ivanovic was a straight red, yes Young has a reputation, but on this occassion I felt he went down honestly.

Torres, again lucky to be on the pitch following his high boot on Cleverly, had the boy not got up a quickly as he did maybe Torres would have been red carded there and then. having said that my first instinct when Evans tackled him was, Evans off, freekick Chelsea. But this interpretation rule is a very grey, yes torres could have stayed up, but where is the incentive to try and stay on your feet. At least in rugby you get the advantage rule, no advantage? go back to the initial infringement. Torres went down to easy in my opinio, he saw the tackle coming and tried to make the most of it.

Hernadez, no goal, clearly offside, but keeper was in the line of vision, so you can see why it was missed. He should have been carded for his celebrations too. that was never going to help and already red hot atmosphere.

Overall I think there were mistakes in both matches, cards that were given, cards that were'nt given. A Goal given and another not. had these decisions been given corectly would it have changed the outcomes? who knows. Do these things even themselves out? again who knows. Its far from perfect, but this is what keeps people talking about the game untill the next match comes around.

On a final note, who would want to be a match official. The abuse they have to put up with is disgraceful. I have four daughters, three of them play under 10 soccer. If I ever caught one of them talking to a ref in the way some of our "professionals" do then the ref wont need to send them off, I'll be there first, escorting them to the sideline.

Welshineire wrote:I watched both games yesterday and have come to this conclusion. Suarez really is an unpleasant little man. The dive following Baines own goal, shows a lack of respect for Moyes and the supporters of any team which are tired of all this falling about nonsense. I would have yellowed him for that. His final goal, was not offside, but frankly he should not have been on the pitch. The attempted
"tackles" on Mirallas and Distin were shocking and each deserved a minimum of a yellow card.

The Chelsea v Man Utd game may have huge implications. I thought that Ivanovic was a straight red, yes Young has a reputation, but on this occassion I felt he went down honestly.

Torres, again lucky to be on the pitch following his high boot on Cleverly, had the boy not got up a quickly as he did maybe Torres would have been red carded there and then. having said that my first instinct when Evans tackled him was, Evans off, freekick Chelsea. But this interpretation rule is a very grey, yes torres could have stayed up, but where is the incentive to try and stay on your feet. At least in rugby you get the advantage rule, no advantage? go back to the initial infringement. Torres went down to easy in my opinio, he saw the tackle coming and tried to make the most of it.

Hernadez, no goal, clearly offside, but keeper was in the line of vision, so you can see why it was missed. He should have been carded for his celebrations too. that was never going to help and already red hot atmosphere.

Overall I think there were mistakes in both matches, cards that were given, cards that were'nt given. A Goal given and another not. had these decisions been given corectly would it have changed the outcomes? who knows. Do these things even themselves out? again who knows. Its far from perfect, but this is what keeps people talking about the game untill the next match comes around.

On a final note, who would want to be a match official. The abuse they have to put up with is disgraceful. I have four daughters, three of them play under 10 soccer. If I ever caught one of them talking to a ref in the way some of our "professionals" do then the ref wont need to send them off, I'll be there first, escorting them to the sideline.

Suarez didn't attempt tackles, they were deliberate attempts to hurt opposition players and one succeeded in removing Everton's best player.
Suarez is odious, but I actually found his dive at Moyes' feet quite funny in the context that I thought Moyes made a error of judgment in calling out Suarez for diving in the build up to the game. Whether he should have been on the pitch or not when he scored in injury time, had the goal stood, fingers would have been pointed at Moyes again over his strategy in the Merseyside Derby, following on from last year's 0-3 defeat after Moyes fielded a weakened side.

Suarez potentially deserving a red card is indeed an issue, and I completely agree with what's been said here. I just decided to focus I the more direct game changers played by the referee, the disallowing of goals and sending players off.

As I said the Ivanovic tackle was a foul, but comparing it to other tackles made during that game, I feel a straight red was still a bit harsh. But either way, it wasnt an awful call. I still stand by making the decision to send a player off who was fouled when a game is at 2-2 and as exciting as it was, is ridiculous. He made the most of it, and I hate that too. But I still feel for the sake of the game, don't send him off. Yes if you want to call it simulation give him a telling off and book him if he hadn't been already, but don't send him off. It kills the game in terms of a fair competition, and the reality is he didn't hurt anyone, especially if he got caught.

To repeat myself be did make the most of it yes, but he was also clipped just like hundreds of other players have been awarded fouls for. It was an awful call.

I thought Everton were the better side yestaerday. In previous seasons im not sure they would have responded quite so well after conceeding those early goals. The suarez dive, surely we are all tired of the falling about like they've been shot, yet Suarez thinks its a joke. was'nt there an incitent in the Sunderland v Stoke game where the downed player got straight back up. I'll check.

I think the Torres sending off has been coming since Pulis's complaints and the coverage they received. Now we have games being influenced when players are wrongly sent off for simulation. I think this plays into the hands of the middle of the road 'clogging' teams like Stoke and Everton who are masters of the art of the little pull, the little trip, the 'accidental' clash of legs. All of which is cheating but somehow acceptable cheating. Do we want to see a return of Wimbledon, and Neil Warnock the most succesful manager in world football?

For all Moyes prematch whining about diving, Neville was correctly booked for a shocking dive and Sterling was harshly booked when Baines over reacted to slight contact. Joe Allen minimised the theatrics when the victim of a clear booking and didn't even win a free kick. What are players meant to do?

As for the last minute winner, are Manchester United ever on the wrong end of a truly awful decision? They certainly seem to benefit from a few.

Kamuza wrote:I think the Torres sending off has been coming since Pulis's complaints and the coverage they received. Now we have games being influenced when players are wrongly sent off for simulation. I think this plays into the hands of the middle of the road 'clogging' teams like Stoke and Everton who are masters of the art of the little pull, the little trip, the 'accidental' clash of legs. All of which is cheating but somehow acceptable cheating. Do we want to see a return of Wimbledon, and Neil Warnock the most succesful manager in world football?

For all Moyes prematch whining about diving, Neville was correctly booked for a shocking dive and Sterling was harshly booked when Baines over reacted to slight contact. Joe Allen minimised the theatrics when the victim of a clear booking and didn't even win a free kick. What are players meant to do?

As for the last minute winner, are Manchester United ever on the wrong end of a truly awful decision? They certainly seem to benefit from a few.

The point in trying to make, just put more fluently. I don't believe any sort if contact should immediately warrant a foul, it's a contact sport. But that's a different matter, the point here is there is no standard on what is and what isn't a dive. Many players get away with falling over after a tap and get fouls, but Torres got sent off. It seems to depend on the referee and that's wrong, it needs to be dealt with the same way everytime.

Kamuza wrote:I think the Torres sending off has been coming since Pulis's complaints and the coverage they received. Now we have games being influenced when players are wrongly sent off for simulation. I think this plays into the hands of the middle of the road 'clogging' teams like Stoke and Everton who are masters of the art of the little pull, the little trip, the 'accidental' clash of legs. All of which is cheating but somehow acceptable cheating. Do we want to see a return of Wimbledon, and Neil Warnock the most succesful manager in world football?

For all Moyes prematch whining about diving, Neville was correctly booked for a shocking dive and Sterling was harshly booked when Baines over reacted to slight contact. Joe Allen minimised the theatrics when the victim of a clear booking and didn't even win a free kick. What are players meant to do?

As for the last minute winner, are Manchester United ever on the wrong end of a truly awful decision? They certainly seem to benefit from a few.

You have to be a closet Koppite to pigeonhole any Everton team with Stoke!

NN2Red2 wrote:

Kamuza wrote:I think the Torres sending off has been coming since Pulis's complaints and the coverage they received. Now we have games being influenced when players are wrongly sent off for simulation. I think this plays into the hands of the middle of the road 'clogging' teams like Stoke and Everton who are masters of the art of the little pull, the little trip, the 'accidental' clash of legs. All of which is cheating but somehow acceptable cheating. Do we want to see a return of Wimbledon, and Neil Warnock the most succesful manager in world football?

For all Moyes prematch whining about diving, Neville was correctly booked for a shocking dive and Sterling was harshly booked when Baines over reacted to slight contact. Joe Allen minimised the theatrics when the victim of a clear booking and didn't even win a free kick. What are players meant to do?

As for the last minute winner, are Manchester United ever on the wrong end of a truly awful decision? They certainly seem to benefit from a few.

You have to be a closet Koppite to pigeonhole any Everton team with Stoke!

Only a closet Toffee would take offence at that comparison and don't get me started on Man U. None of thier fans come from Manchester you know. Me? No I was born in Liverpool, still consider myself Welsh when the Rugby is on but you can ask anyone, my uncle was Bob Paisley. Well a mate of his. Well he went to Paisley in Glasgow once and found a Bob so everyone calledhim 'Found a Bob in Paisley' and it was his dying wish that I follow Liverpool. No he isn't dead but I thought it would be disrespectful to wait until he was dead. Don't you love your uncle?

Red614 wrote:

Kamuza wrote:I think the Torres sending off has been coming since Pulis's complaints and the coverage they received. Now we have games being influenced when players are wrongly sent off for simulation. I think this plays into the hands of the middle of the road 'clogging' teams like Stoke and Everton who are masters of the art of the little pull, the little trip, the 'accidental' clash of legs. All of which is cheating but somehow acceptable cheating. Do we want to see a return of Wimbledon, and Neil Warnock the most succesful manager in world football?

For all Moyes prematch whining about diving, Neville was correctly booked for a shocking dive and Sterling was harshly booked when Baines over reacted to slight contact. Joe Allen minimised the theatrics when the victim of a clear booking and didn't even win a free kick. What are players meant to do?

As for the last minute winner, are Manchester United ever on the wrong end of a truly awful decision? They certainly seem to benefit from a few.

The point in trying to make, just put more fluently. I don't believe any sort if contact should immediately warrant a foul, it's a contact sport. But that's a different matter, the point here is there is no standard on what is and what isn't a dive. Many players get away with falling over after a tap and get fouls, but Torres got sent off. It seems to depend on the referee and that's wrong, it needs to be dealt with the same way everytime.

Unfortuantely it's more about the individual player's reputation and the mood at the time than anything else. It's easy to send off Torres for diving because he's part of the Johnny Foreigner overpaid diving squad. Bellamy was once sent off for diving when he was cearly fouled but he is one of the Premier League's pantomime villains and a right royal pain in every referee's arse. Would that ever happen to Wayne Rooney? Probably not. Remember the outrage when Alan Shearer was sent off for continually backing in? It hasn't happend to any high profile player since but it should and it would if managers and fans started complaining about it and especially if it was seen as being introduced to the game by players from overseas.

Kamuza wrote:

NN2Red2 wrote:

Kamuza wrote:I think the Torres sending off has been coming since Pulis's complaints and the coverage they received. Now we have games being influenced when players are wrongly sent off for simulation. I think this plays into the hands of the middle of the road 'clogging' teams like Stoke and Everton who are masters of the art of the little pull, the little trip, the 'accidental' clash of legs. All of which is cheating but somehow acceptable cheating. Do we want to see a return of Wimbledon, and Neil Warnock the most succesful manager in world football?

For all Moyes prematch whining about diving, Neville was correctly booked for a shocking dive and Sterling was harshly booked when Baines over reacted to slight contact. Joe Allen minimised the theatrics when the victim of a clear booking and didn't even win a free kick. What are players meant to do?

As for the last minute winner, are Manchester United ever on the wrong end of a truly awful decision? They certainly seem to benefit from a few.

You have to be a closet Koppite to pigeonhole any Everton team with Stoke!

Only a closet Toffee would take offence at that comparison and don't get me started on Man U. None of thier fans come from Manchester you know. Me? No I was born in Liverpool, still consider myself Welsh when the Rugby is on but you can ask anyone, my uncle was Bob Paisley. Well a mate of his. Well he went to Paisley in Glasgow once and found a Bob so everyone calledhim 'Found a Bob in Paisley' and it was his dying wish that I follow Liverpool. No he isn't dead but I thought it would be disrespectful to wait until he was dead. Don't you love your uncle?

Red614 wrote:Suarez potentially deserving a red card is indeed an issue, and I completely agree with what's been said here. I just decided to focus I the more direct game changers played by the referee, the disallowing of goals and sending players off.

As I said the Ivanovic tackle was a foul, but comparing it to other tackles made during that game, I feel a straight red was still a bit harsh. But either way, it wasnt an awful call. I still stand by making the decision to send a player off who was fouled when a game is at 2-2 and as exciting as it was, is ridiculous. He made the most of it, and I hate that too. But I still feel for the sake of the game, don't send him off. Yes if you want to call it simulation give him a telling off and book him if he hadn't been already, but don't send him off. It kills the game in terms of a fair competition, and the reality is he didn't hurt anyone, especially if he got caught.

To repeat myself be did make the most of it yes, but he was also clipped just like hundreds of other players have been awarded fouls for. It was an awful call.

Reading your post again you highlight something I completely agree with; irrespective of the technicalities and rules about offenses and appropriate actions from referees, many a game has been ruined by the referees sending off players.
Sunday's game was not ruined by the first sending off, but Chelsea were on a roll and most likely to win the game.
Eleven v Eleven is what most people, not all I have to add, want to see and refs need to show some empathy to the game around them when they make these decisions.

Agreed. A player that is out of control and risked hurting someone should go, everytime. But if there is no true victim, I feel the context should very much be considered for the sake of it being basically a piece of entertainment for the fans. Watching someone get sent off for kicking the ball away, while beneficial to us when it happened, isn't exactly in the spirit of letting the game flow fairly. (I'm talking a minor kick away. Few yards maybe, hoofing the ball into the crowd would be different)