A Flying Visit - Where i think we went wrong - and why i stay away

I have avoided coming on here for some time mostly because I have felt frustrated by the method of argument used by some posters in trying to back up their own point of view. To be short I think that Red has fought a lone battle against certain inconsistencies and hypocrisies while I have, for the most part, given up and just left people to it.

I do browse the forum even though I don’t post now but felt as bemused as ever by some of the things posted in the WBA match day thread.  I will probably regret posting this as I am sure this will not change anyone else’s views. People seem very entrenched in how they think and what they believe and I suppose that includes me too.

Point 1 – TDA says he is heartily sick with Lawrenson’s weekly comment that changing the manager was a mistake and says it is pure speculation that we would be ‘relatively safe’ under Malky. However that hasn’t stopped TDA amongst others proclaiming during some debates that we would be just as badly off under Malky and were going to go down anyway if he stayed. It seems it is less the speculation that TDA finds disagreeable and more the person who is being backed by it. Personally I think we would be better off without the change if Tan could have bit his lip and carried on to the end of the season before making his decision. Which leads me to

Point 2 – TDA continued that ‘it is a pity that the commentators didn't take a proper look at what was happening at City and the performances of the team pre-Christmas.’  Cyncoed Slumdog backs this up saying that ‘We were dropping like a stone under Malky’. The trouble is if you look at the points picked up we had 17 from 18 games under Malky. 9 came in the first 9 games and 8 in his last 9 games. Hardly a case of dropping like a stone.  Even his last 5 games brought in 4 points. This may not have been enough to match the expectations of some supporters but it is clearly better than anything OGS has managed so far. Incidentally if people want to see how he copes in a less challenging division does that mean he will be the wrong man for the job if we got promoted again under him? (Considering promotion in itself under Malky was not enough to earn the seal of approval from certain quarters and that we have had a chance to see OGS in the Prem already)

Point 3 – Slumdog’s Son said that he would prefer to see us losing 6-3 under OGS than 4-0 under Malky. Possibly a reasonable point though I should point out that we didn’t lose 4-0 this season under Malky. We have under OGS though. Don’t get me wrong. I would love to see us survive and thrive using the ‘let’s outscore the opposition’ approach but I would take survival and negative football over gung ho relegation in a heartbeat. I am not saying Malky WOULD  have delivered that but I do think he and his approach would be better suited to escaping relegation and I will explain why I think that In a moment. I might not want negative, ultra cautious football forever and a day but I do think as a newly promoted side it was the best option and would certainly be happy to put the champagne football on ice for a season or so until we had bedded in.

So my reasons for picking Malky over anything I have seen from OGS so far? Malky clearly did set up with a view not to lose games and hope to sneak a goal rather than attacking and despite people’s preferences (which I have no problem with) it has clearly been a more successful approach so far than OGS’s attacking plan. The trouble is that a closer look at the figures shows that is the way to pick up points not just for us but for any side who realistically will be at the wrong end of the table.

I said that Malky earned 4 points from the last 5 games despite our goals drying up and us beginning to ship more at the other end. The reason?  We still managed 2 clean sheets during those games which put points on the board. If you look closer you will see 14 of the 17 points earned under Malky came during 7 games where we only conceded 2 goals in total. Despite OGS’s attacking approach 7 of the 8 points he has picked up himself have come in 3 games where we only conceded 2 goals in total  - and to put that into perspective there have only been  4 league games under Ole where we have conceded less than 2 goals.

Think that perhaps Ole just needs more time and that being open at the back and trying to outscore the opposition is the best option?  Then look at the stats of other teams near us. Crystal Palace scored just 8 goals in the first 12 league games under Pulis but picked up 16 points thanks to 5 wins where they kept clean sheets. All 31 points they have picked up have been during 13 games where only 4 goals were conceded.

How about a supposedly more attacking side like Sunderland? They were tipped to improve after the attack minded Poyet joined them but their improvement (like Palace’s) has been more down to being more defensively solid than they were in the opening part of the season. 23 out of the 25 points they have got have come from 11 games during which only 3 goals were conceded.

The thing is that however much people might love the idea of ultra attacking football a side near the bottom of the table will always fare much better by keeping things tight defensively. I hope that I get proved wrong and that we can pick up the points we need winning 3-2 or 4-3 but I fear that unless Ole finds some hitherto undiscovered ability to organise a defence that we are destined for the Championship.

And if we end up there? Well hopefully OGS can turns us into an attacking machine like Reading of previous years and storm the league in style. However if we remain as open as we are now at the back in the Championship then we are just as likely to be like Leeds of the last few years ( score lots, concede lots, finish mid table). To be honest I am happy to take that chance and try to attack our way to promotion next season if we go down – but I truly believe we messed up in changing horses midstream this season and compounded it with the appointment of Ole.

For those who would prefer attacking relegation to defensive survival then that is fine – that will probably be delivered over the next 6 games. For me and for this season at least I would take Palace’s 8 goals and 16 points in 12 games along with Pulis’s approach without hesitation.  

The current rules of the board amongst some seem to be that it was ok to judge Malky right from the start and not change opinions even with promotion but that we should give Ole more time and not judge him until next season even if we get relegated. It is also seemingly becoming increasingly accepted to praise Ole for anything slightly encouraging and all games won but to blame Malky and his signings for any defeats. Add to this the view that the ‘damage was done’ In the first half of the season when we actually picked up more points per game and had better results and you may understand my bemusement  - but probably not.

Great to see you back in mainstream discussion, Toastie!

As you know, the beauty of this forum is that you can have informed debate and all opinions (even mine) are respected, without fear of abuse.

I will respond more fully to the points you have made, but in the meantime, I just wanted to say "don't be a stranger!"

I genuinely just did a double take when, after reading the title, I realised this post was actually defending me. I'm far too used to getting singled out   

I think I actually uniformally agree with your concerns though, although maybe it would of been better to anonymise that 'this guy said something like this' rather than explicitly name people.

I knew we'd conceded a hell of a lot of goals and I thought we had only kept a clean sheet in about four games since he took over, that's staggered me that it's even worse than that.

I also agree that OGS is getting a free ride, I think too many people are ready to blame Malky regardless of what OGS does from here on in. If we get relegated and fail to bounce back that will probably be his fault somehow as well.

A defensive play style can be demoralising, but so can one that's too attacking. Imagine being a striker that works their socks off to score goals, but everytime you put one in the net five minutes later the other team walk through your defence and equalise? At what pint do you decide 'what's the point?'.

Firstly, great to see you again toast! 

What a great post - I am actually amazed that I avoided making into your article somehow as some of your criticism definitely applies to me too! :)

I see what you are saying Toast, I do. Malky did appear to be getting the points - but putting football philosophy aside for a minute, due to his relationship with Tan, it was impossible for him to continue his job. Tan perceived, rightly or wrongly - which is still up to debate, that Malky spent disastrously in the summer and that he had to go. 

Back to the football though, I have to say, personally I was bored to tears a lot of the time watching Malky's style of football (and had been for the best part of the last season too when we went up as champions!) 

The underlying question is this - what is the point of watching football?  Is it to be entertained? Is it to watch your team become the best that they can be? 

I'm sure everyone will have a different answer to that question but for me I ask myself when does it become the case that securing a win is more important that the manner in which the victory is secured? 

I can completely understand that we needed to be realistic in our expectations this season and a relegation fight was always on our hands but I have to be honest and say that, for all but the purist, football fans will want to be entertained on the odd occasion when watching a football game. I'm sorry but I think I would chose the more exciting football of Jones and OSG over Malky's effective-but-boring brand every time because ultimately that is why I watch the sport. I know that many will disagree with me on that and that's fine ! I'm sure I'm alone on this but I find Barcelona's 'keep the ball and pass it into the back of the net' a bore too.  

Either way toastie, all that being said, I am grateful to Malky for delivering us PL football and his legacy will not quickly be forgotten, he has also helped me see what I value the most in watching football.

Finally, as with everything in life, people will have different opinions and will hold different weights of value towards things but we can all unite under what we hold in common -the love of our club.

To add another two cents, there was no guarantee that Malky would play defensive football forever. It's sensible to build up from the bottom, ensure your team is stable and can hold It's shape before you begin to experiment. Malky did it two seasons running yes but look at the context - in the championship we punched above our weight and I'm certain of that now. He knew we were a competent side that could fend of attacks all day long but didn't have the creative forces to truly stun people. And in the premiership he heavily restructured the defence to accommodate the faster attacking play the premiership characterises, and wanted to be certain it was watertight before looking elsewhere.


My closing point is this - in his now famous press conference, he said he wanted a defender, a midfielder and a new striker in the January window. That doesn't sound very defensive, does it? He knew we needed to score more too and was working on it.

RHYS! What the hell has happened to the forum? No matter how many lines I leave between paragraphs it is posting as one big ugly block. Noticed yours has done it as well (I think).

Morning Toast. Your arguments are well reasoned and although I don't go along with all your conclusions, the difference on this board is that you won't get ripped to pieces for expressing them. Red could also do with some back up on occasions as you have mentioned!
I'm not going to go into detail but in your last paragraph you talk about people judging Malky from the start which I did but not changing their opinions which I don't agree with. I thought he was excellent from the off and showed great shrewdness in the market by bringing in players for little outlay and getting us a relative amount of success in his first season. He then kicked on and started our promotion season superbly but strangely, when the job apeeared done by the end of February, the team became more and more defensive and we eventually crawled over the line by drawing a lot of low scoring games. That didn't really matter as the object had been achieved although disquiet about the football being played was already setting in.
His close season purchases have since shown that he is one of those managers who perform better when they don't have a lot to spend as he threw money around like confetti sometimes to no avail, although even the good buys appear to have been overpriced. Some early season games made people sit up and take notice but I think these are the type of adrenaline fuelled results that promoted teams often achieve before tailing off which I believe is what happened and that things got worse and worse. I think relegation was inevitable by Christmas. However, I will now give Ole the same sort of time I gave Malky but if this time next season we are struggling in the Championship I'll probably be getting fed up of him in charge.
All views are welcome on here and you may be disagreed with but so what.

Red614 wrote:I genuinely just did a double take when, after reading the title, I realised this post was actually defending me. I'm far too used to getting singled out   

I think I actually uniformally agree with your concerns though, although maybe it would of been better to anonymise that 'this guy said something like this' rather than explicitly name people.

I knew we'd conceded a hell of a lot of goals and I thought we had only kept a clean sheet in about four games since he took over, that's staggered me that it's even worse than that.

I also agree that OGS is getting a free ride, I think too many people are ready to blame Malky regardless of what OGS does from here on in. If we get relegated and fail to bounce back that will probably be his fault somehow as well.

A defensive play style can be demoralising, but so can one that's too attacking. Imagine being a striker that works their socks off to score goals, but everytime you put one in the net five minutes later the other team walk through your defence and equalise? At what pint do you decide 'what's the point?'.

1. My frustration over things which have been said while not wanting to personalise things is the reason i have chosen the 'stay away' option most of the time.

2. After about 7 pints for me. (3 is happy - 7 is maudlin)  

Toastie, you are too of a polite guy to offend anyone, nothing wrong with your post

Toast Boy wrote:

Red614 wrote:I genuinely just did a double take when, after reading the title, I realised this post was actually defending me. I'm far too used to getting singled out   

I think I actually uniformally agree with your concerns though, although maybe it would of been better to anonymise that 'this guy said something like this' rather than explicitly name people.

I knew we'd conceded a hell of a lot of goals and I thought we had only kept a clean sheet in about four games since he took over, that's staggered me that it's even worse than that.

I also agree that OGS is getting a free ride, I think too many people are ready to blame Malky regardless of what OGS does from here on in. If we get relegated and fail to bounce back that will probably be his fault somehow as well.

A defensive play style can be demoralising, but so can one that's too attacking. Imagine being a striker that works their socks off to score goals, but everytime you put one in the net five minutes later the other team walk through your defence and equalise? At what pint do you decide 'what's the point?'.

1. My frustration over things which have been said while not wanting to personalise things is the reason i have chosen the 'stay away' option most of the time.

2. After about 7 pints for me. (3 is happy - 7 is maudlin)  

  

I have nothing constructive to add to this thread as my head is a barren desert of intellect. I will, however, say great thread, interesting viewpoints and welcome back Toastie (even if it is only to be brief).  

I also do understand what you mean Rhys and sympathise about your frustrations over Malky's style of play and it yours and anyone elses right to say that you want something different and want a change. My issues have been more with the rewriting of history in the interpretations of this season.

Malky undoubtedly made big mistakes and his biggest in my opinion was the amount he spent on A-Corn to then come out and say that he is not ready for the prem yet. Even if he turned out to be world class we couldn't afford that kind of money on the future when we needed survival as a newly promoted club. Ironcially i see Ole as being the same kind of mistake by Tan. OGS may or may not turn out to be a good and successful manager but it is looking ever likely that he 'is one for the future'. If Tan was interested in Premier league survival and was going to make a change he should at least have gone with experience.

All i hope for on here is that whatever side people argue on that they try to hold onto some of the facts and some logic. If people didn't like Malky's style of play and all they really want is an attack minded manager then all is good in the world regardless of results. If people do however want results then the figures will tell you that conceding 2 or 3 goals a game and hoping to outscore the oppostion is not the answer. However you try to dress it up we have gone backwards in terms of points per game since OGS took over. To keep blaming Malky for things going wrong now largely (in my opinion) caused by Ole's tactics and lack of defensive organisation for his team is being disingenuous.

We may or may not have gone down under Malky but please let's not pretend now that he is gone that the problem was in the first half of the season. When we went to play Liverpool away with everyone thinking Malky would be gone by the end of the day we had 17 points from 16 games. We had earned 8 points from the previous 7 games. If people wanted him gone because of poor transfer dealings then fair enough. If because of the negative style of football then fair enough. Just don't claim it was done on survival grounds and then give Ole an easier time for earning less points per game.

With luck the ghost of Malky will be buried soon. By the start of next season surely no one will be pointing the finger for bad performances or bad results in any other direction than the manager in charge. Hopefully we can be praising him for the great performances and results instead but either way let's try to apportion blame and praise to the right people at the right times.

Toast Boy wrote:I also do understand what you mean Rhys and sympathise about your frustrations over Malky's style of play and it yours and anyone elses right to say that you want something different and want a change. My issues have been more with the rewriting of history in the interpretations of this season.

Malky undoubtedly made big mistakes and his biggest in my opinion was the amount he spent on A-Corn to then come out and say that he is not ready for the prem yet. Even if he turned out to be world class we couldn't afford that kind of money on the future when we needed survival as a newly promoted club. Ironcially i see Ole as being the same kind of mistake by Tan. OGS may or may not turn out to be a good and successful manager but it is looking ever likely that he 'is one for the future'. If Tan was interested in Premier league survival and was going to make a change he should at least have gone with experience.

All i hope for on here is that whatever side people argue on that they try to hold onto some of the facts and some logic. If people didn't like Malky's style of play and all they really want is an attack minded manager then all is good in the world regardless of results. If people do however want results then the figures will tell you that conceding 2 or 3 goals a game and hoping to outscore the oppostion is not the answer. However you try to dress it up we have gone backwards in terms of points per game since OGS took over. To keep blaming Malky for things going wrong now largely (in my opinion) caused by Ole's tactics and lack of defensive organisation for his team is being disingenuous.

We may or may not have gone down under Malky but please let's not pretend now that he is gone that the problem was in the first half of the season. When we went to play Liverpool away with everyone thinking Malky would be gone by the end of the day we had 17 points from 16 games. We had earned 8 points from the previous 7 games. If people wanted him gone because of poor transfer dealings then fair enough. If because of the negative style of football then fair enough. Just don't claim it was done on survival grounds and then give Ole an easier time for earning less points per game.

With luck the ghost of Malky will be buried soon. By the start of next season surely no one will be pointing the finger for bad performances or bad results in any other direction than the manager in charge. Hopefully we can be praising him for the great performances and results instead but either way let's try to apportion blame and praise to the right people at the right times.

Nicely put

I hate to say it but I really can't wait for this season to be over - not matter how it ends - for this exact reason. It's like breaking up with someone yet still having all their stuff in your house, it's very difficult to clear your head and get a proper perspective.

It's almost irrelevant to me which division we're in now, I just want to start enjoying it all again. This is of course all dependent on Tan being a little more discreet with his public appearances in relation to the club but, with any luck, the dust will settle over the summer and things will be more positive again.

    

Toast Boy wrote:I have avoided coming on here for some time mostly because I have felt frustrated by the method of argument used by some posters in trying to back up their own point of view. To be short I think that Red has fought a lone battle against certain inconsistencies and hypocrisies while I have, for the most part, given up and just left people to it.

I do browse the forum even though I don’t post now but felt as bemused as ever by some of the things posted in the WBA match day thread.  I will probably regret posting this as I am sure this will not change anyone else’s views. People seem very entrenched in how they think and what they believe and I suppose that includes me too.

Point 1 – TDA says he is heartily sick with Lawrenson’s weekly comment that changing the manager was a mistake and says it is pure speculation that we would be ‘relatively safe’ under Malky. However that hasn’t stopped TDA amongst others proclaiming during some debates that we would be just as badly off under Malky and were going to go down anyway if he stayed. It seems it is less the speculation that TDA finds disagreeable and more the person who is being backed by it. Personally I think we would be better off without the change if Tan could have bit his lip and carried on to the end of the season before making his decision. Which leads me to

Point 2 – TDA continued that ‘it is a pity that the commentators didn't take a proper look at what was happening at City and the performances of the team pre-Christmas.’  Cyncoed Slumdog backs this up saying that ‘We were dropping like a stone under Malky’. The trouble is if you look at the points picked up we had 17 from 18 games under Malky. 9 came in the first 9 games and 8 in his last 9 games. Hardly a case of dropping like a stone.  Even his last 5 games brought in 4 points. This may not have been enough to match the expectations of some supporters but it is clearly better than anything OGS has managed so far. Incidentally if people want to see how he copes in a less challenging division does that mean he will be the wrong man for the job if we got promoted again under him? (Considering promotion in itself under Malky was not enough to earn the seal of approval from certain quarters and that we have had a chance to see OGS in the Prem already)

Point 3 – Slumdog’s Son said that he would prefer to see us losing 6-3 under OGS than 4-0 under Malky. Possibly a reasonable point though I should point out that we didn’t lose 4-0 this season under Malky. We have under OGS though. Don’t get me wrong. I would love to see us survive and thrive using the ‘let’s outscore the opposition’ approach but I would take survival and negative football over gung ho relegation in a heartbeat. I am not saying Malky WOULD  have delivered that but I do think he and his approach would be better suited to escaping relegation and I will explain why I think that In a moment. I might not want negative, ultra cautious football forever and a day but I do think as a newly promoted side it was the best option and would certainly be happy to put the champagne football on ice for a season or so until we had bedded in.

So my reasons for picking Malky over anything I have seen from OGS so far? Malky clearly did set up with a view not to lose games and hope to sneak a goal rather than attacking and despite people’s preferences (which I have no problem with) it has clearly been a more successful approach so far than OGS’s attacking plan. The trouble is that a closer look at the figures shows that is the way to pick up points not just for us but for any side who realistically will be at the wrong end of the table.

I said that Malky earned 4 points from the last 5 games despite our goals drying up and us beginning to ship more at the other end. The reason?  We still managed 2 clean sheets during those games which put points on the board. If you look closer you will see 14 of the 17 points earned under Malky came during 7 games where we only conceded 2 goals in total. Despite OGS’s attacking approach 7 of the 8 points he has picked up himself have come in 3 games where we only conceded 2 goals in total  - and to put that into perspective there have only been  4 league games under Ole where we have conceded less than 2 goals.

Think that perhaps Ole just needs more time and that being open at the back and trying to outscore the opposition is the best option?  Then look at the stats of other teams near us. Crystal Palace scored just 8 goals in the first 12 league games under Pulis but picked up 16 points thanks to 5 wins where they kept clean sheets. All 31 points they have picked up have been during 13 games where only 4 goals were conceded.

How about a supposedly more attacking side like Sunderland? They were tipped to improve after the attack minded Poyet joined them but their improvement (like Palace’s) has been more down to being more defensively solid than they were in the opening part of the season. 23 out of the 25 points they have got have come from 11 games during which only 3 goals were conceded.

The thing is that however much people might love the idea of ultra attacking football a side near the bottom of the table will always fare much better by keeping things tight defensively. I hope that I get proved wrong and that we can pick up the points we need winning 3-2 or 4-3 but I fear that unless Ole finds some hitherto undiscovered ability to organise a defence that we are destined for the Championship.

And if we end up there? Well hopefully OGS can turns us into an attacking machine like Reading of previous years and storm the league in style. However if we remain as open as we are now at the back in the Championship then we are just as likely to be like Leeds of the last few years ( score lots, concede lots, finish mid table). To be honest I am happy to take that chance and try to attack our way to promotion next season if we go down – but I truly believe we messed up in changing horses midstream this season and compounded it with the appointment of Ole.

For those who would prefer attacking relegation to defensive survival then that is fine – that will probably be delivered over the next 6 games. For me and for this season at least I would take Palace’s 8 goals and 16 points in 12 games along with Pulis’s approach without hesitation.  

The current rules of the board amongst some seem to be that it was ok to judge Malky right from the start and not change opinions even with promotion but that we should give Ole more time and not judge him until next season even if we get relegated. It is also seemingly becoming increasingly accepted to praise Ole for anything slightly encouraging and all games won but to blame Malky and his signings for any defeats. Add to this the view that the ‘damage was done’ In the first half of the season when we actually picked up more points per game and had better results and you may understand my bemusement  - but probably not.

I feel special, I've been quoted!

In fairness I had thought we lost 4-0 to Liverpool earlier in the season, but you are right, it was 3-1. I like Red but the difficulty with conversing through a medium such as this is that sometimes comments appear blunter or more vitriolic than they actually are. We all get on, as evidenced by a cracking end of last season meet-up and I speak to a lot of the guys on the forum via text/twitter/facebook etc. We all like our football and emotions can run high before, during and after matches but all is always forgiven.

PS Red likes being the bad guy  

Slumdog's Son wrote:

I feel special, I've been quoted!

In fairness I had thought we lost 4-0 to Liverpool earlier in the season, but you are right, it was 3-1. I like Red but the difficulty with conversing through a medium such as this is that sometimes comments appear blunter or more vitriolic than they actually are. We all get on, as evidenced by a cracking end of last season meet-up and I speak to a lot of the guys on the forum via text/twitter/facebook etc. We all like our football and emotions can run high before, during and after matches but all is always forgiven.

PS Red likes being the bad guy  

Does he also look a bit like Freddie Mercury?

Arkay Dubya wrote:

Slumdog's Son wrote:

I feel special, I've been quoted!

In fairness I had thought we lost 4-0 to Liverpool earlier in the season, but you are right, it was 3-1. I like Red but the difficulty with conversing through a medium such as this is that sometimes comments appear blunter or more vitriolic than they actually are. We all get on, as evidenced by a cracking end of last season meet-up and I speak to a lot of the guys on the forum via text/twitter/facebook etc. We all like our football and emotions can run high before, during and after matches but all is always forgiven.

PS Red likes being the bad guy  

Does he also look a bit like Freddie Mercury?

Yes, and Tom Cruise