Joe Allen off to Liverpool?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19189499?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Liverpool have bid £15m for him, triggering his release cause. Personally I've not yet been convinced he is going to be of Liverpool standard, never mind worth £15m! Anyone else find it could be another flop on the kop?

He is a quality player .....but £15 million

£26m on Allen and Borini.

£55m on Hendo and Carroll.

Great business by Brenda IMO. Plus numerous other older players off the wage bill.

Allen and Borini have a lot to prove though if Liverpool are serious about qualifying for Europe.

Militant Black Guy wrote:£26m on Allen and Borini.

£55m on Hendo and Carroll.

Great business by Brenda IMO. Plus numerous other older players off the wage bill.

Yeah it's a bit of an unfair comparison to make mate. Both Carroll and Henderson were awesome when they arrived for that price tag, it was only later they flopped. You can't immediately assume that Borini and Allen are much better without them also being given a few seasons to test themselves. The demands of European football is going to be new to both of them and a much deeper challenge than the likes of Swansea could offer. More games, more expectation.

Seems about £10m too high for a relatively unproven player.

Red614 wrote:

Militant Black Guy wrote:£26m on Allen and Borini.

£55m on Hendo and Carroll.

Great business by Brenda IMO. Plus numerous other older players off the wage bill.

Yeah it's a bit of an unfair comparison to make mate. Both Carroll and Henderson were awesome when they arrived for that price tag, it was only later they flopped. You can't immediately assume that Borini and Allen are much better without them also being given a few seasons to test themselves. The demands of European football is going to be new to both of them and a much deeper challenge than the likes of Swansea could offer. More games, more expectation.

They were big fishes in little ponds like Adam at Blackpool. They were never quality, just stood out big time at their respective smaller clubs, no disrespect to the other players at those clubs.

Allen possesses more talent than Henderson. He is more composed, makes better decisions, tracks back more and spreads play better. Henderson is very very nervous on the ball yet Allen and Ramsey performed with ease for Team GB and controlled play which looks well for the future of Welsh football.

Borini is better than Carroll. Has better technique, closes down more, better engine and attitude, possesses quality free kicks, good positional play, etc. He played very well in Italy last season considering where he was played.

Rodgers has done a terrific bit of business for them so far. Experience in the Prem isn't necessary. Cisse came to the Prem and did well and although I dont expect Borini to hit Cisse's heights I still think he'll do a tremendous job.

Carroll was a panic buy, a stupid one at that on the back of the Torres deal. Liverpool had more to spend and would have been better off just coping until the summer to bring in a new striker with quality.

You reckon Newcastle are a small club and Swansea aren't? In Carrol's last season with Newcastle they finished 12th, on their first season back to the premier league. Swansea managed 11th, only one place better and I highly doubt they could now imitate Newcastle and make top 5. Carroll was also one of the top scorers of the season averaging over a goal every two games, as good as any other top striker that season. Allen is on the other hand only 22, and while impressive yet to truly shine amongst the big boys. There's absolutely no way you can say Allen and Borini are more impressive than Carroll if you compare them like for like. Carroll has now flopped and they may not. But as premier league debutants, there is virtually no difference.

Good luck to him, he showed himself well at the Olympics. Just need to give him chance to bed in, maybe slowly introduce him to the first team and take off the pressure of instant success.

joe allen very good player but worth £5/£6m at most... typical livershite throwing money around...

Red614 wrote:You reckon Newcastle are a small club and Swansea aren't? In Carrol's last season with Newcastle they finished 12th, on their first season back to the premier league. Swansea managed 11th, only one place better and I highly doubt they could now imitate Newcastle and make top 5. Carroll was also one of the top scorers of the season averaging over a goal every two games, as good as any other top striker that season. Allen is on the other hand only 22, and while impressive yet to truly shine amongst the big boys. There's absolutely no way you can say Allen and Borini are more impressive than Carroll if you compare them like for like. Carroll has now flopped and they may not. But as premier league debutants, there is virtually no difference.

I was referring to Borini. Roma are a bigger club than Newcastle yes. Only the most ardent Newcastle fan would say otherwise because they're as delusional as a lot of die hard Liverpool fans in regards to the status of their club.

Swansea managed 11th with basically what most regarded a championship quality team. It was only once people realised how good Allen and Britton were and then Gylfi on loan that people started to take notice.

There is a world of difference. At the same age Allen possesses tonnes more quality than Henderson. Henderson is a nervous wreck on the ball whilst Allen is the complete opposite. Allen is a better passer and more intelligent and at his age he is only going to get better next to quality players like Lucas and Gerrard. Their midfield with Lucas, Allen and Gerrard in the Gylfi more attacking role will be a passing dream once they adapt to Brendan's way. Their biggest problem will be fitting in someone once Gerrard retires because I don't believe Shelvey is their missing piece. I think they'd need to invest at that point as Gerrard is class.

Borini is also a much better player than Carroll. Carroll was the product of the hype nation that is Britain. Only in Britain do we care about this big striker small striker and long ball nonsense. You go across the continent and even the tallest of strikers like Llorente and Zlatan are expected to play football on the ground, link up and get attacking midfielders and wingers involved. Carroll's control of the ball and execution of passing is nowhere near the level required for a top team.

He was 100% a panic buy and Comolli and Dalglish completed some of the most stupid transfers in British history.

I've watched a lot of Borini in Serie A and whilst that in itself cannot be a marker for quality I know he possesses everything needed to succeed as a quality premiership striker. Tenacity, work rate, can finish, closes down, intelligent movement - all things you rarely see from Carroll.

In response to Allen, he is by far more talented than Henderson at the same age. Spending £20m on Henderson was a disaster, he was worth around £10m at most. If you factor in inflation, the fact Allen is technically more gifted and more composed and likely to add a lot more to the team then £15m is fair game.

Even Brendan knows that these players better than whats at already at Liverpool which is why he's tried to ship off Carroll slyly in the press whilst still being 50/50 on it just in case Carroll stays so there is no bad feelings. He's being very clever but the moment a good offer comes in is the moment Brendan will say 'ciao Andy' and thats it. Its also not because he doesn't fit his style of play, its because he knows Andy is limited in his ability whereas someone like Borini, who also hasn't got the English Player Tax, is better and will become a better player.

Borini is supremely underrated. He decided to leave the Chelsea academy because rather than given a chance to breakthrough (even though Chelsea wanted to keep him) they kept spending millions on proven talent.

Far too many people are basing their opinions on Borini from his time at Swansea, hes come a long way since then. Carroll on the other hand has had a dreadful season. It also wasn't because Carroll did not have supply. Liverpool were in the top 3 for assists last season but Suarez and Carroll and Downing routinely missed chances, also hitting the woodwork more than any other Prem club.

The only excuse I could make for Henderson is he was played RM rather than his preferred natural CM.

Henderson could become a quality player and I wouldn't put it passed him, but he is not as good as Allen. Both Allen and Ramsey are far superior to him.

In regards to Carroll, I dont think he'll ever become a great. He was overhyped as usually done by the media. The fact is, Borini is far superior but people dont realise it because he's Italian, not British and because he's not been the radar for a lot of people for a while.

Once him and Suarez gel, even more so if they clinch the Ramirez deal, Liverpool will have a great understanding up front. Something they would never get under Carroll because he has little footballing intelligence. His positional play has led to others shouting at him, even young players like Shelvey and Spearing and his attitude has been dire. Whether that was down to homesickness is still to be seen, but if it was, that is another weakness in itself.

You can say Hazard is unproven in the Prem and I agree, but there is no doubting he is better than Carroll and Borini, despite the difference in positions. Just because a player isn't proven in the Prem, doesn't mean you can't acknowledge the difference in attributes and qualities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZeE2f_ZPVY

Anyone saying Carroll is as good as Fabio is mental. Sorry but they just are. The price tag means nothing to me. Borini was so cheap because Roma only bought the second half of him a couple of months ago to sell him on. Liverpool knew what Roma paid and wouldn't pay much more so Roma only got a small premium because the fee was public knowledge.

The difference is, Kenny was out of touch with the modern game thinking the tall striker and short striker combo would work. It doesn't to as much effect which is why Chelsea rarely played Drogba and Torres together, Man Utd play Rooney and Welbeck or Rooney and Hernandez, etc. all relatively short.

Rodgers is more in touch with the modern game, knows the going rate for players and knows his plan. He knows players who possess the right quality and he'll only pay the right price for them. Hence, Gylfi being told to do one by Liverpool when he demanded more wages than what Liverpool FC were willing to pay a player of his quality. Rodgers pulled the plug on the deal.

Borini's positional play and anticipation is second to none.

There is no doubt Rodgers is a great manager and its the reason im so glad he's left Swansea. There, he was only going to take them up probably into a Europa League spot. Laudrup has a history of unsettling dressing rooms but he may change his ways so I wont comment on that. However, I hated Rodgers at the Jacks because he was so good at his job whereas Dave Jones was delusional here.

Congratulations on winning the 'longest post to date' award.

I'll read it and come back with a serious post in a min.

Red614 wrote:You reckon Newcastle are a small club and Swansea aren't? In Carrol's last season with Newcastle they finished 12th, on their first season back to the premier league. Swansea managed 11th, only one place better and I highly doubt they could now imitate Newcastle and make top 5. Carroll was also one of the top scorers of the season averaging over a goal every two games, as good as any other top striker that season. Allen is on the other hand only 22, and while impressive yet to truly shine amongst the big boys. There's absolutely no way you can say Allen and Borini are more impressive than Carroll if you compare them like for like. Carroll has now flopped and they may not. But as premier league debutants, there is virtually no difference.

Allen stats prove he is amongst the big boys. He outshone numerous of them at a smaller club. Alongside Gerrard and Lucas he is only going to get better.

Also, Carroll played 19 and scored 11. Newcastle's whole game plan was pass to Barton and lump it in to Carroll. In the Championship he thrived because its a more physical game. In the Premiership he won't unless Rodgers can turn him somehow into a technical beast. I can't see that happening but if it does, fair play to him.

That is equivalent to around half a season. Whilst that is good its not over the duration of the whole season. Would he have kept that form up? No one knows but to buy someone on form from 20 games is beyond retarded. Demba Ba's form significantly dipped in the second half of the season. Half season wonders aren't a rare thing. Some of Kenny's deals begged belief. Allen consistently performed all season and Borini played well for Roma and Swansea, so much in fact Swansea wanted to keep him instead of signing Graham.

So Carroll's record is irrelevant because he only played 19 games with Newcastle that season, but Borini, who made only 5 more starts than him, is amazing?

I could talk about this all day but I feel my point is getting lost here. You can't foresee the future.Carroll could of been an amazing signing, he wasn't. Borini could be an amazing signing, but we need to wait and see. You can't immediately say he's better than Carroll because there's no comparison available.

Red614 wrote:So Carroll's record is irrelevant because he only played 19 games with Newcastle that season, but Borini, who made only 5 more starts than him, is amazing?

I could talk about this all day but I feel my point is getting lost here. You can't foresee the future.Carroll could of been an amazing signing, he wasn't. Borini could be an amazing signing, but we need to wait and see. You can't immediately say he's better than Carroll because there's no comparison available.

You can tell just by assessing a player. They don't need to play in the same league either. It is point blank obvious he is better than Carroll.

Carroll's record is not irrelevant, it was just a stupid decision to sign him as a panic buy on the back of performing well in so many games. If a striker scores 10 in 10 is he quality? What if he then goes and score 2 in the next 28? so 12 in 38? would we say he is quality then?

Carroll's record was just above 1 in 2. However, Newcastle's whole game plan was to cross and cross and cross. He was the main point of their attacks. There was rarely another way for them to attack.

Carroll was never going to be an amazing signing IMO. He was by far always going to be a mid table player at best. He doesn't possess the quality to be above that level.

Carroll's goal scoring record was better than Borini's. Borini however offers far more to his game than Carroll all over. Carroll's chance to conversion ratio is appalling. At Liverpool it was 5.2% meaning in every 19 chances he scored 1 goal roughly. That is shocking.

Borini's on the other hand was 18.8%, playing wide. He may play there under Rodgers, he may not, we don't know. What we do know is that his conversion ratio is by far superior and he is better in every other thing except for heading of the ball which wont matter much in Rodgers system.