Why I dont think Terry is a racist and why I hate race arguments in the UK

[JBClub Legend]

What he said is not racist. He used a descriptive word then an insult after it. In no way did he say ' you are a **** because you are black'. He said 'you black ****'. That was just simply describing him then abusing him. Its still bad to be abusing fellow players but to me thats just using appropriate English skills.

It would be the same as saying 'that black renault is s**t'. Its not saying 'that renault is s**t because its black'. The fact of the matter is nowhere did Terry administer causation in his comments. It was basic English.

You (the subject) black (adjective) **** (noun)

Its not like he used the N or C words to address Ferdinand which have direct links with terms used in the days of slavery. He used an adjective and then a noun. Whilst there is an argument that there was no need for the adjective to be used there is also the argument as to why not?

Adjectives help identify a person or object. Its what we've been taught as kids and no direct causation is attached unless it is specified in the use of the language as pointed out in point one.

I have been called a welsh bastard by english people. They are not racist. I am in fact WELSH and they may think im a prick. If they said 'you are a prick because you're from Wales' then I would deem that offensive. However, if no causation is attributed to the comment then I do not find it offensive, just an adjective to address the object or person in question.

How come if someone says 'my black friend' the black part is considered a single adjective but in the term 'you black ****' its deemed a matter of causation? Its ridiculous and another way in which this country is a laughing stock. The rule of 'when it suits' springs to mind.

Is it racist to point out the colour of something or someone in an argument? Not at all in my book, it depends on context. Had he called Rooney 'a fat white ****' would he be called before the courts? Not at all. Im not a fan of Terry at all but this is one big joke and a massive waste of taxpayers cash. The country is so pathetic when it comes to race issues its beyond sad.

The word 'black' in the sentence used by Terry was an adjective or modifier, nothing else. The offensive part of the comment was '****'.

Terry is essentially being convicted for pointing out the bleeding obvious. Anton Ferdinand is black and he, speaking English as he does, used the term black as a descriptive term. He didn't say 'you are a **** because you are black'. That is the big difference. I feel sorry for Terry in this incident I really do because nowhere has been a racist. He's guilty of using aggravating language and I dont condone that as behaviour of someone who should be a role model but if we're going to throw the book at every footballer who is abusive then almost every footballer is going to have a criminal record.

The sad thing is, if Terry is convicted, the state are the real racists. They are in effect associating the term black with **** themselves without Terry directly doing so in his outburst. They are attributing the causation. So whilst it is easy for them to sit back and slap Terry with a conviction its them who are the real racists deep down.

So yeah, if you dont understand English rant and rave at me for having this opinion but thats what I truly believe. Now if Terry used the N word or the C word or used causation I'd say throw the book at him. However, he didn't, and therefore I believe he is innocent.

[Tyrion TannisterGlobal Superstar]

True enough, but I'd raise this point. I doubt John Terry had referred to Anton as black except for during the accused point. In my opinion that makes a difference. If he was constantly referring to him as black, while quite strange I'd see your point.

Ill put it this way to explain. I'm English, I'm assuming you are Welsh. We have regular arguments on the pitch but we've never really ever mentioned our nationalities. Suddenly, I call you a Welsh t**t. Does the fact I would never use your Welsh nationality in anything I said cause the difference when it comes with an insult?

[JBClub Legend]

True enough, but I'd raise this point. I doubt John Terry had referred to Anton as black except for during the accused point. In my opinion that makes a difference. If he was constantly referring to him as black, while quite strange I'd see your point.

Ill put it this way to explain. I'm English, I'm assuming you are Welsh. We have regular arguments on the pitch but we've never really ever mentioned our nationalities. Suddenly, I call you a Welsh t**t. Does the fact I would never use your Welsh nationality in anything I said cause the difference when it comes with an insult?

Not really. I am a Welsh so therefore you are pointing out the bleeding obvious and you may think im a t**t so that is the reason you have used that as the noun.

However, if you said 'you are a t**t because you are Welsh' I would deem that offensive because in that statement you are attributing a derogative term to me because of my nationality. That is offensive. Causation in my opinion is off massive importance and its not the same as using the term as an adjective.

The problem is, if Terry and Ferdinand had challenged and Ferdinand was down and Terry helped him up and tapped him on the head and said 'you okay my black friend?' nothing would have been said. Its only when its used as an adjective with a derogative term that people get irate which is wrong. You can still describe something whilst being derogative with the noun specified.

We cant just say 'its okay to use adjective as long as you're noun is positive'. Thats incorrect and stupid use of the English language. The problem this country has is differentiating adjectives and nouns and far too many people on their high horses thinking they know someone better or something than they actually. I dont think Terry is a racist deep down and neither do I think he guilty of using racist language. He called Ferdinand black, which he is, and he called him a **** afterwards as the noun.

[Tyrion TannisterGlobal Superstar]

As I said you're right in what you say and I respect your opinion. I just also feel the context is very important, that the fact he is black is only apparently notable when he is angry with him.

On a slightly different topic however, I feel Anton should face an FA committee regardless of the outcome. The man has admitted in court that he provoked Terry into a rage resulting in what happened. I believe that is no more acceptable really.

[JBClub Legend]

As I said you're right in what you say and I respect your opinion. I just also feel the context is very important, that the fact he is black is only apparently notable when he is angry with him.

On a slightly different topic however, I feel Anton should face an FA committee regardless of the outcome. The man has admitted in court that he provoked Terry into a rage resulting in what happened. I believe that is no more acceptable really.

Fair point, but there is nothing to say that Terry doesn't say 'my black friend' and so forth. In the Suarez case Johnson stated that Suarez used negrito as a friendly term and thats part of his culture. Therefore if Suarez used that term against Evra there is nothing wrong with that as he's used it with both positive and negative connotations.

The thing is, by using descriptive term we may it clear who we are talking to or about or what we are talking about. It narrows things down. On a football pitch in the heat of the moment its very plausible that Terry used it to grab his attention before he got back into position. By using the term black as an adjective its more likely he would have grabbed Ferdinands attention as its obvious he wasn't talking to Joey Barton etc.

If I were to call Serena Williams a black goddess am I racist? If you are using the same logic as the courts are using in the Terry case you could argue I was. They are attributing causation between the noun and the adjective. Therefore, If I were to say 'black goddess' they would see that as me saying 'she is a goddess because she is black'. Surely that is offensive to other ethnicities as im attributing something positive solely to that skin colour. Thats why I deem the whole adjective to noun causation argument ridiculous. The fact is, they are separate language entities and one is a descriptive term and the other is a noun. There is a reason they exist as two separate parts of the English language.

[NN2RedFirst Team Regular]

I am aware of an Everton fan who has been banned from all UK football grounds for five years for being overheard shouting "You French Bastard" at Louis Saha, which, in the context of what John Terry has admitted he said, seems quite mild.
There is no need to refer to the colour of a person's skin, positive or negative and maybe more needs to be done to discourage open abuse between players. As Edwina Curry said on the radio (I've filled in the obvious gaps) "I object to John Terry being caugt calling Ferdinand a cunt, whether or not he used the term "Black".

[JBClub Legend]

I am aware of an Everton fan who has been banned from all UK football grounds for five years for being overheard shouting "You French Bastard" at Louis Saha, which, in the context of what John Terry has admitted he said, seems quite mild.
There is no need to refer to the colour of a person's skin, positive or negative and maybe more needs to be done to discourage open abuse between players. As Edwina Curry said on the radio (I've filled in the obvious gaps) "I object to John Terry being caugt calling Ferdinand a cunt, whether or not he used the term "Black".

More needs to be done to rid the game of abuse I agree and that is something I support. However, to use descriptive terms as a scapegoat for the racism campaign is the wrong way to go about it. You either acknowledge descriptive terms in positive and negative context or as Morgan Freeman has stated you rid the terms in negative and positive contexts. You can't decide when it suits because then we have no level of consistency.

You stop calling people white or black and then there is nothing to bring up. You call people white and black positively and negatively and you remove the stigma associated with the descriptive terms. There are two ways to go. However, there seems to be a lot of people happy to jump on their high horse as soon as either method is used.

[Mr Cholmondley-WarnerAcademy Player]

John Terry is not being accused of being a racist, he is accused of a racially aggravated public order offence -
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/racially_aggravated_offences/

The debate is simply whether John Terry was repeating a phrase he thought Anon Ferdinand had said to him, in surprise, or whether he used the FBC phrase as a direct insult. If its the latter then by the letter of the law he has committed the offence he is accused of.

Is he a cross burning member of the KKK? No of course not, but the law is that you can't use language like that any more.

Additionally it is naive to suggest that using the word black in the context he's accused of is merely descriptive. It has been widely accepted by convention now in the UK that insulting a black person, or an Asian person for that matter, with phrases that include references to their race is not descriptive and is worse than referring to someone as fat, or ugly for example, as in the UK black and Asian people are minorities, and it's the duty of a civilised society to protect its minority populations.

An English friend calling me a Welsh c##t in a situation of reciprocal banter would in my view be acceptable to me provided no one else was around to hear it. An English person squaring up to me during a football match calling me a Welsh c##t would be out of order in my view.

I would suggest UK society will always consider insults towards black or Asians to be worse than insults towards Welsh, English, Scots or Irish as its traditionally been a form of friendly banter rather than hate driven, as the N word or P word have been

[Tyrion TannisterGlobal Superstar]

So insulting a welshman or a Scotsman is absolutely fine because it's 'probably a joke' but insulting a black or Asian ethnicity individual is immediately over the line? That's double standards that won't make anything better.

[Happy DaysTeam Captain]

I understand the point but he could have just called him a c*nt. It was completely unnecessary to call him a black c*nt. I'm not saying he is necessarily racist, it seems Ferdinand had a go at him first and Terry came up with the worst insult he could think of.
Whatever the context though, calling someone a black c*nt is just unacceptable behaviour from a grown man, and shows what sort of a person he is.

[JBClub Legend]

Is he a cross burning member of the KKK? No of course not, but the law is that you can't use language like that any more.

Just because a law is a law, it doesn't mean its right to have it. Thats a false argument from the off. Not all laws are good ideas.

Additionally it is naive to suggest that using the word black in the context he's accused of is merely descriptive. It has been widely accepted by convention now in the UK that insulting a black person, or an Asian person for that matter, with phrases that include references to their race is not descriptive and is worse than referring to someone as fat, or ugly for example, as in the UK black and Asian people are minorities, and it's the duty of a civilised society to protect its minority populations.

Its not naive at all. No where is causation stipulated or noticeable in his use of the English language. Its only because society has attached a stigma to it that its wrong. I know plenty of black people who are annoyed that a stigma has been attached to it. Its as if you are associative the term black with the derogative term (the noun in question) which is out of order. The point is further backed up by the fact if you called someone a white **** nothing would get said about the term white being used. There might be outroar about the word **** being used but not the word white. Thats the problem, why should we treat minorities any different to how we treat us, white people? Isn't that not in itself a racist stance to take? We should, in terms of our actions and use of language treat minorities the same as us.

An English friend calling me a Welsh c##t in a situation of reciprocal banter would in my view be acceptable to me provided no one else was around to hear it. An English person squaring up to me during a football match calling me a Welsh c##t would be out of order in my view.

Why? You are Welsh and he may think you are a ****. Do you have some sort of inferiority complex that makes you automatically associate the welsh part of that sentence with the negative part of that sentence? The same was said of Evra by a black Uruguayan player, Pereira. If someone called me a Welsh **** I wouldn't care. There is no causative link between the adjective and noun. I would applaud them on their observation skills that has led them to knowing that I am of Welsh nationality (I have no problem with being called Welsh as a descriptive word as I am in fact Welsh and I am proud of that) and then I would laugh at them for calling me a ****. Sticks and stones and all that.

I would suggest UK society will always consider insults towards black or Asians to be worse than insults towards Welsh, English, Scots or Irish as its traditionally been a form of friendly banter rather than hate driven, as the N word or P word have been

That in itself is racist. Racism is racism regardless of who is accused and who is the victim. The only way you are going to get rid of racism or most of it is by treating all ethnic groups and nationalities the same regardless of whether they are a minority or majority. Everyone should be treated the same and you cant have different rules for different groups as the problem will never be solved.

Never mind that, just because you deem that the adjective and the noun has a causative link it doesn't mean that everyone does. In the eyes of English as a language, its a descriptive term. Its only become a term with negative connotations because of political correctness, guilt from historical events and the eyes of the beholder. I think anyone who automatically associates a descriptive term with a derogative term has a problem themselves. The insult used by Terry and what he should be charged for is '****'. The people who associate the descriptive word 'black' with that insulting term are in fact worse than Terry themselves because sub-consciously they made the link between the two words. Make of that what you will.

[JBClub Legend]

I understand the point but he could have just called him a c*nt. It was completely unnecessary to call him a black c*nt. I'm not saying he is necessarily racist, it seems Ferdinand had a go at him first and Terry came up with the worst insult he could think of.
Whatever the context though, calling someone a black c*nt is just unacceptable behaviour from a grown man, and shows what sort of a person he is.

But then you could say 'you could just call a red or blue car, a car?'.

Where do we draw the line? its an adjective. Terry is being made a victim of his own language and political correctness. He never made the link. He didn't say 'you are a **** because you are black'. The courts decided to jump on that bandwagon and I think that says more about them and what some of society sub-consciously think than it does about Terry himself.

The insult is one word = '****'
The adjective is one word = 'black'

To associate the two as a collective insult says a lot about one's views.

[•••••••™Club Legend]

What he said is not racist. He used a descriptive word then an insult after it. In no way did he say ' you are a **** because you are black'. He said 'you black ****'. That was just simply describing him then abusing him. Its still bad to be abusing fellow players but to me thats just using appropriate English skills.

It would be the same as saying 'that black renault is s**t'. Its not saying 'that renault is s**t because its black'. The fact of the matter is nowhere did Terry administer causation in his comments. It was basic English.

You (the subject) black (adjective) **** (noun)

Its not like he used the N or C words to address Ferdinand which have direct links with terms used in the days of slavery. He used an adjective and then a noun. Whilst there is an argument that there was no need for the adjective to be used there is also the argument as to why not?

Adjectives help identify a person or object. Its what we've been taught as kids and no direct causation is attached unless it is specified in the use of the language as pointed out in point one.

Have you applied for you TEFL Diploma yet? I think you could go far in this business

[JBClub Legend]

What he said is not racist. He used a descriptive word then an insult after it. In no way did he say ' you are a **** because you are black'. He said 'you black ****'. That was just simply describing him then abusing him. Its still bad to be abusing fellow players but to me thats just using appropriate English skills.

It would be the same as saying 'that black renault is s**t'. Its not saying 'that renault is s**t because its black'. The fact of the matter is nowhere did Terry administer causation in his comments. It was basic English.

You (the subject) black (adjective) **** (noun)

Its not like he used the N or C words to address Ferdinand which have direct links with terms used in the days of slavery. He used an adjective and then a noun. Whilst there is an argument that there was no need for the adjective to be used there is also the argument as to why not?

Adjectives help identify a person or object. Its what we've been taught as kids and no direct causation is attached unless it is specified in the use of the language as pointed out in point one.

Have you applied for you TEFL Diploma yet? I think you could go far in this business

[NN2RedFirst Team Regular]

I understand the point but he could have just called him a c*nt. It was completely unnecessary to call him a black c*nt. I'm not saying he is necessarily racist, it seems Ferdinand had a go at him first and Terry came up with the worst insult he could think of.
Whatever the context though, calling someone a black c*nt is just unacceptable behaviour from a grown man, and shows what sort of a person he is.

But then you could say 'you could just call a red or blue car, a car?'.

Where do we draw the line? its an adjective. Terry is being made a victim of his own language and political correctness. He never made the link. He didn't say 'you are a **** because you are black'. The courts decided to jump on that bandwagon and I think that says more about them and what some of society sub-consciously think than it does about Terry himself.

The insult is one word = '****'
The adjective is one word = 'black'

To associate the two as a collective insult says a lot about one's views.

I think you are being a bit too intellectual here. The knuckle draggers who would use an insult like "You Black Cunt!" would rarely make the distinctions you are making. Some would, but to avoid confusion, the utterance has been deemed illegal.

The concept that John Terry is a victim of political correctness is amusing to the point of being off the wall. That unpleasant man has escaped proper punishment for previous misdemeanors by being able to wield the great financial resources at his disposal. He even managed to get this trial originally scheduled for March, moved to after Euro 2012, and Rio Ferdinand out of the England squad for anything but "Footballing reasons."

I hope he is made an example of. (But I'm not holding my breath)

Finally, "Mad Dog" Suarez used the term "Negrito" in a "Friendly fashion?" Do me a favour - only hardened Koppites believe that!

[Sponsored content]