Let's Not Forget What Boris Johnson Said About Hillsborough

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

That should knock some of the gloss off "Cuddly" Boris.

I'm sure a journo will bring that up with him at the next available opportunity.


Boris Johnson has a weird combination of acting like a buffoon but being able to speak eloquently at the same time. He confuses me.

Rhys wrote:

I'm sure a journo will bring that up with him at the next available opportunity.


Boris Johnson has a weird combination of acting like a buffoon but being able to speak eloquently at the same time. He confuses me.

He's an extremely clever, ruthless politician. "Boris the Buffoon" is a carefully created image to play down his background - Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. What he said about Hillsborough was actually part of an attack on his perceived mawkishness of Liverpool people over the beheading of Bigley from Liverpool in Iraq. I agreed with Boris about the mawkishness, but the cheap jibes about Hillsborough were wrong at the time and may prove costly now.

Hillsborough aside, Liverpool fans do have a heck of a reputation. While all fanbases have their bad eggs (anyone seen the Cardiff fan tell people to 'grow up and stop crying' regarding Hillsborough?), they seem to have a particularly bad attitude generally. Many, many football news sources have declared they have had particular harassment from Liverpool fans more than any other team when critiscism has been given. FourFourTom on twitter recieved three death threats from Liverpool fans for saying that he doubted they'd make the CL for some time, zero from any other club. Stan Collymore has publicised several racist attacks on himself, the vast majority from Liverpool fans again after a critiscism of their club. I find myself agreeing that a hell of a lot of them seem to be very hostile to anything said against the club, in any shape or form, and I tend to dislike them for it.

But back to Hillsborough. What Boris said is clearly out of order, but is he completely wrong? The police caused the situation by not ordering people effectively, and their attitude after the accident and the cover-up is horrendous. But fans kept pouring into a hallway that was indeed far too full and could e visibly seen as that. No on could see that anyone was being physically crushed, but it would clearly of been physically far too busy no matter where you were stood. People should of started to see this and gone in other directions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was their own fault, because all emergency services on the day failed abysmally to keep it safe for everyone. But I feel saying the fans themselves couldn't of maybe lessened the situation is a bit nieve.

Red614 i do think you're being a bit naive mate. I've been involved in a few far less dramatic situations with city over the years and you're just helpless. I remember being a kid outside the vetch in the welsh cup in particular. i was only about 14/15 and if it wasnt for a few fellaslifting me up it could have been serious.
I think you're forgetting the context of football in the 1980's mate. Often fans were herded likecattle and that's the way it was so i dont think the people would realise the gravity of the situation until it was too late.

Red614 wrote:Hillsborough aside, Liverpool fans do have a heck of a reputation. While all fanbases have their bad eggs (anyone seen the Cardiff fan tell people to 'grow up and stop crying' regarding Hillsborough?), they seem to have a particularly bad attitude generally. Many, many football news sources have declared they have had particular harassment from Liverpool fans more than any other team when critiscism has been given. FourFourTom on twitter recieved three death threats from Liverpool fans for saying that he doubted they'd make the CL for some time, zero from any other club. Stan Collymore has publicised several racist attacks on himself, the vast majority from Liverpool fans again after a critiscism of their club. I find myself agreeing that a hell of a lot of them seem to be very hostile to anything said against the club, in any shape or form, and I tend to dislike them for it.

But back to Hillsborough. What Boris said is clearly out of order, but is he completely wrong? The police caused the situation by not ordering people effectively, and their attitude after the accident and the cover-up is horrendous. But fans kept pouring into a hallway that was indeed far too full and could e visibly seen as that. No on could see that anyone was being physically crushed, but it would clearly of been physically far too busy no matter where you were stood. People should of started to see this and gone in other directions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was their own fault, because all emergency services on the day failed abysmally to keep it safe for everyone. But I feel saying the fans themselves couldn't of maybe lessened the situation is a bit nieve.

Yes, he is completely wrong.

I'm no lover of the Koppite hordes who have a deserved record for mayhem caused by hooliganism and the "Badge of Honour" of getting into grounds without tickets, but in this case, the 96 are dead because of systemic failures; from a ground that had no safety certificate and two previous games with congestion problems on that terrace, to pens and fences that treated every attendee as a potential hooligan and not a customer with a legitimate right to watch a football match in safety.

There was no safe crowd control that day and given the pen structures on the Leppings Lane end of the ground, the decision by the Police to open the gates and let supporters rush in unsupervised was criminal.

You are the one exhibiting "naivety" if you are expecting a crush of people rushing onto a terrace to watch a football match to behave in a controlled manner.

Getting back to Boris Johnson - what he wrote was a cheap jibe at Liverpool people; he didn't even know that 96 people had died. Not only that he supported the "Sun's" position. Did you ever see a copy of that edition?
Boris will pay a political price. And David Cameron, knows it.

Why is it assumed that football fans can't act in a 'controlled' manner? You talk about them like you would wild animals that have to be restrained and can't possibly be trusted. I CAN assume people can behave themselves because I and the people I go with do it all the time. Going to other events If I see massive quers and I'm allowed to I go to other doors. I definetely don't join when there's yells from the tunnel for people to go back, and others are clambering over the top.

Those that were already in were trapped and I agree with you gringo, they couldn't of avoided what tragically happened. But witnesses inside the tunnel report hundreds of them screaming for people to go back or stop coming in. But some people kept entering and that made it worse. The corners of the stand weren't completely empty so those doors were used albeit they were badly marked out.

As I feared previously, ive been tarred with the wrong brush here. What happened was primarily the police's fault and they should face appropriate action against them. But I've seen the CCTV, and I've see. How many people were stood at the back of the tunnel where there was no damage done. It was ridiculously packed, and there was still people trying to barge their way through it. It's not their fault, I'd never say it was, but the damage could of been lessened if they didn't rush so and waited a little longer.

What happened happened because of many reasons. The police acted horrendously, the stadium was a death trap, there wasn't enough staff on hand, I could go on and on. I'm just saying this vindication of anyone and everyone that dares say football fans themselves couldn't learn anything from this is unfair.

Red614 wrote:Why is it assumed that football fans can't act in a 'controlled' manner? You talk about them like you would wild animals that have to be restrained and can't possibly be trusted. I CAN assume people can behave themselves because I and the people I go with do it all the time. Going to other events If I see massive quers and I'm allowed to I go to other doors. I definetely don't join when there's yells from the tunnel for people to go back, and others are clambering over the top.

Those that were already in were trapped and I agree with you gringo, they couldn't of avoided what tragically happened. But witnesses inside the tunnel report hundreds of them screaming for people to go back or stop coming in. But some people kept entering and that made it worse. The corners of the stand weren't completely empty so those doors were used albeit they were badly marked out.

As I feared previously, ive been tarred with the wrong brush here. What happened was primarily the police's fault and they should face appropriate action against them. But I've seen the CCTV, and I've see. How many people were stood at the back of the tunnel where there was no damage done. It was ridiculously packed, and there was still people trying to barge their way through it. It's not their fault, I'd never say it was, but the damage could of been lessened if they didn't rush so and waited a little longer.

What happened happened because of many reasons. The police acted horrendously, the stadium was a death trap, there wasn't enough staff on hand, I could go on and on. I'm just saying this vindication of anyone and everyone that dares say football fans themselves couldn't learn anything from this is unfair.

Did you go to big football (and/or Rugby) matches in the 70's or 80's?

NN2Red2 wrote:

Red614 wrote:Why is it assumed that football fans can't act in a 'controlled' manner? You talk about them like you would wild animals that have to be restrained and can't possibly be trusted. I CAN assume people can behave themselves because I and the people I go with do it all the time. Going to other events If I see massive quers and I'm allowed to I go to other doors. I definetely don't join when there's yells from the tunnel for people to go back, and others are clambering over the top.

Those that were already in were trapped and I agree with you gringo, they couldn't of avoided what tragically happened. But witnesses inside the tunnel report hundreds of them screaming for people to go back or stop coming in. But some people kept entering and that made it worse. The corners of the stand weren't completely empty so those doors were used albeit they were badly marked out.

As I feared previously, ive been tarred with the wrong brush here. What happened was primarily the police's fault and they should face appropriate action against them. But I've seen the CCTV, and I've see. How many people were stood at the back of the tunnel where there was no damage done. It was ridiculously packed, and there was still people trying to barge their way through it. It's not their fault, I'd never say it was, but the damage could of been lessened if they didn't rush so and waited a little longer.

What happened happened because of many reasons. The police acted horrendously, the stadium was a death trap, there wasn't enough staff on hand, I could go on and on. I'm just saying this vindication of anyone and everyone that dares say football fans themselves couldn't learn anything from this is unfair.

Did you go to big football (and/or Rugby) matches in the 70's or 80's?

Thats the point I'm trying to make. Football and rugby crowds were out of control and needed intense organisation. If that organisation wasn't there something bad was always going to happen. The police should of ran it better, without a shadow of the doubt. But for that reason, the crowd can't be completely free of blame.

Red614 wrote:

NN2Red2 wrote:

Red614 wrote:Why is it assumed that football fans can't act in a 'controlled' manner? You talk about them like you would wild animals that have to be restrained and can't possibly be trusted. I CAN assume people can behave themselves because I and the people I go with do it all the time. Going to other events If I see massive quers and I'm allowed to I go to other doors. I definetely don't join when there's yells from the tunnel for people to go back, and others are clambering over the top.

Those that were already in were trapped and I agree with you gringo, they couldn't of avoided what tragically happened. But witnesses inside the tunnel report hundreds of them screaming for people to go back or stop coming in. But some people kept entering and that made it worse. The corners of the stand weren't completely empty so those doors were used albeit they were badly marked out.

As I feared previously, ive been tarred with the wrong brush here. What happened was primarily the police's fault and they should face appropriate action against them. But I've seen the CCTV, and I've see. How many people were stood at the back of the tunnel where there was no damage done. It was ridiculously packed, and there was still people trying to barge their way through it. It's not their fault, I'd never say it was, but the damage could of been lessened if they didn't rush so and waited a little longer.

What happened happened because of many reasons. The police acted horrendously, the stadium was a death trap, there wasn't enough staff on hand, I could go on and on. I'm just saying this vindication of anyone and everyone that dares say football fans themselves couldn't learn anything from this is unfair.

Did you go to big football (and/or Rugby) matches in the 70's or 80's?

Thats the point I'm trying to make. Football and rugby crowds were out of control and needed intense organisation. If that organisation wasn't there something bad was always going to happen. The police should of ran it better, without a shadow of the doubt. But for that reason, the crowd can't be completely free of blame.

That's not correct; but terraces were "No Country For Old Men" - I haven't got time to elaborate now, but I will.

It wasn't strictly the terraces that were the problem but usually it was the access points which almost always bottle-necked. Even today if you go to the old grounds like qpr, pompey and even the old main stand at stamford bridge you will see exactly what i mean. Only a few years ago i saw a flashpoint as a result of this when we were going into the away end at loftus rd. We had my mates disabled son with us and if we didnt identify the problem early it could have been nasty.

Red614 wrote:Hillsborough aside, Liverpool fans do have a heck of a reputation. While all fanbases have their bad eggs (anyone seen the Cardiff fan tell people to 'grow up and stop crying' regarding Hillsborough?), they seem to have a particularly bad attitude generally. Many, many football news sources have declared they have had particular harassment from Liverpool fans more than any other team when critiscism has been given. FourFourTom on twitter recieved three death threats from Liverpool fans for saying that he doubted they'd make the CL for some time, zero from any other club. Stan Collymore has publicised several racist attacks on himself, the vast majority from Liverpool fans again after a critiscism of their club. I find myself agreeing that a hell of a lot of them seem to be very hostile to anything said against the club, in any shape or form, and I tend to dislike them for it.

But back to Hillsborough. What Boris said is clearly out of order, but is he completely wrong? The police caused the situation by not ordering people effectively, and their attitude after the accident and the cover-up is horrendous. But fans kept pouring into a hallway that was indeed far too full and could e visibly seen as that. No on could see that anyone was being physically crushed, but it would clearly of been physically far too busy no matter where you were stood. People should of started to see this and gone in other directions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was their own fault, because all emergency services on the day failed abysmally to keep it safe for everyone. But I feel saying the fans themselves couldn't of maybe lessened the situation is a bit nieve.

Every club with a tribal following is the same, us being one of them. If we get promoted and play the Swans in the Prem the Old Bill won't be ready for it. Not saying its a good thing but it'll be a nightmare for SWP.

thehumblegringo wrote:It wasn't strictly the terraces that were the problem but usually it was the access points which almost always bottle-necked. Even today if you go to the old grounds like qpr, pompey and even the old main stand at stamford bridge you will see exactly what i mean. Only a few years ago i saw a flashpoint as a result of this when we were going into the away end at loftus rd. We had my mates disabled son with us and if we didnt identify the problem early it could have been nasty.

That's right actually, it is as much about access, but surely you have terrace surfed in big crowds?

NN2Red2 wrote:

thehumblegringo wrote:It wasn't strictly the terraces that were the problem but usually it was the access points which almost always bottle-necked. Even today if you go to the old grounds like qpr, pompey and even the old main stand at stamford bridge you will see exactly what i mean. Only a few years ago i saw a flashpoint as a result of this when we were going into the away end at loftus rd. We had my mates disabled son with us and if we didnt identify the problem early it could have been nasty.

That's right actually, it is as much about access, but surely you have terrace surfed in big crowds?

Personally i much preferred terraces to the all seater stadia we now see but why i think red614 is mistaken is because it's impossible to compare the football experience of the last 10-20 years with what it was like before that.
To add to what i have already said about access there was also the problem of hooliganism on a far greater scale and the authorities basically tarred all football fans with the same brush. There wasnt corporate boxes like we have today and it really was the common mans game. Often you couldnt shout back and tehn everyone would take heed and give some space because the police were often at the back driving you in.
It was a totally different time and at the time of hillsborough i was only 12 and i was gonna go to the game but i could only get tickets in tge leppings lane terrace so i didnt bother. during the week after the game rumours started circulating that i went to the game and died! The national press came to my house to interview my parents on the loss of their son! They wouldn't believe my parents that i was still alive for a while and my father had to basically chase them out of the street!

I'm still yet to understand where I am 'mistaken'. You keep highlighting one sentence when I write three paragraphs simply to actually say what I'm saying all over again.

You yourself pointed out 70 and 80's crowds were very different to modern ones, and gringo just mentioned about hooliganism , both of these things are EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. Elements of the crowd are also to blame for what happened. You've also made regular comments towards me 'not understanding' what it was like while having no knowledge of my own age, my family's history with football of this time, etc.

I'm not turning this into an argument because that's not what I'm here for. But this derogatsation of other members is exactly why forums like this one were required.